"The first day of lectures, all the data has been processed, everything is on its way, what a total relief!"
[Matthias Kirsch:] A total relief. Most of us in the university world know the feeling: Students after passing a test or printing out the final version of the thesis, researchers when the results of a months-long study come in. Or for example Gudrun Obst, the woman we just heard from. Gudrun Obst is one of the "Hidden Champions" at TUM, one of those individuals who work behind the scenes and without whom the university simply wouldn't function. Gudrun Obst is responsible for space planning at the university and makes sure that tens of thousands of students have the lecture halls they need. Today she joins us to talk about her work. Welcome to the second episode of "We are TUM", the podcast by and for the Technical University of Munich. My name is Matthias Kirsch and I'll be guiding you through the podcast today. As always, we'll start off with a word from the President of the university, Thomas Hofmann, who will introduce the topics of today's episode.
[Thomas Hofmann:] Welcome, dear listener: We are very pleased that you've joined us again today. As always, this episode of "We are TUM" starts off with cutting-edge research. We'll speak with information sciences professor Daniel Cremers about what is probably one of the most important research fields of our time: Artificial Intelligence. Next, we'll hear from Gudrun Obst, who is responsible for allocating the TUM lecture halls, a real challenge given the constantly growing number of students, currently 45,000. And she does a fantastic job. She's this episode's "Hidden Champion". Then TUM student Veronica Becker will tell us what's behind the raised flower beds which have been on the TUM main campus for several months now. She's the initiator of the "Plant a Seed" project and is right now in the process of planting carrots and cauliflower on campus.
This will be followed by the topic of sustainability. We speak with Werner Lang, Professor for sustainable construction at TUM , about efficient building methods, climate neutrality and the question of how Germany looks in international comparison when it comes to sustainable construction. And we'll close the episode with a short trip outside the TUM cosmos. The Bavarian State Minister of Science and Art, Bernd Sibler, tells us about the ONE MUNICH Strategy Forum project and the strategic collaboration between TUM and our sister-university LMU. And in the '5 Tips' section author Merlin Gröber shares his experiences not only living, but also working from his bus for the last year and a half. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode of "We are TUM" and wish you all the best until next time.
[Marcel Laskus:] Among other things, you work on teaching machines to analyze and interpret image data. What can machines see that humans can't see?
[Daniel Cremers:] Well, that's a difficult question to answer. It's usually the other way around, humans can see things which machines still can't see today. And we have to acknowledge the fact that computer vision and image processing are still very much in their infancy. Today machines we're capable of recognizing simple things in images, and machines are capable of doing so as well. But detecting more complex relationships in the world based on images is still very difficult for machines today, it actually still isn't really possible.
[Laskus:] What was a finding in your research that completely baffled you?
[Cremers:] One finding that has baffled me for many years, actually ever since I was a child, is that people are capable of using their eyes to detect complex processes using only image data in such a way that makes it possible to predict the way the world will develop. As a child I was completely baffled by the fact that when someone throws me a tennis ball, I'm capable of catching the tennis ball, sometimes even if I close my eyes shortly after the ball is thrown. This means somehow I'm capable of – OK, it doesn't always work, but I've tried it, I played a lot of ball as a kid. I was fascinated that the human brain is apparently capable of predicting the entire trajectory of the ball, all the way to the point where the ball will land and the point in time at which it will land. You can try it out yourself with a tennis ball. I essentially have to close my hand when the ball hits it. If I wait for the ball to hit my hand first and only close my hand then, the way smaller children are apt to do, there's no way to grab the ball. This is a highly complex task which humans can perform in a fraction of a second. Many people aren't even aware of all the things the brain is calculating when we catch a tennis ball or kick a soccer ball.
[Laskus:] And how is it possible to transfer this fascinating human ability, this process in the human brain, to a machine? It sounds a bit like you're most fascinated by the abilities of the human being.
[Cremers:] That's true, human beings have been the major inspiration for us for quite a long time and there are sure to be examples where machines today have better visual capabilities than humans, especially when it comes to quantitative evaluations. For example if I have a biological image and I want to count how many cells are visible in the image, and what their average size is. These are things where humans are just chronically poor performers. We can't count thousands and thousands of cells with the naked eye. Machines are always better when it comes to counting and quantifying. But understanding complex phenomena, capturing relationships between things in the real world, making predictions on how the world will be developing, that's where humans are amazingly good. And that's one of the challenges we're tackling, where we're trying to reproduce this ability in machines: Ultimately the ability to capture the physics of the world based on data from a camera.
[Laskus:] Do you have a concrete example which can help us understand how you're trying to reproduce this human ability, how you're trying to teach it to a machine or a computer?
[Cremers:] That usually looks something like this: First we formulate a specific question. Take a very specific example: Imagine I take a teddy bear and let it fall on a table. And I try to capture the movement of the teddy bear with a camera, to capture the 3D structure of the teddy bear, how it deforms over time, ideally to the extent that I can simulate the movement of the teddy bear projected into the future. And the great thing is that when you observe something like that, the simulation of a phenomenon into the future, then a great comparison can be made against the data. I can look at every point in time to see how good the simulation was, how well it fits the actually observed data. And the challenge is to make the simulation match reality. That's also the topic of my ERC Advanced Grant for SIMULACRON. It's about exactly that: Making the simulation match reality.
[Laskus:] Right now Artificial Intelligence sounds like science fiction to a lot of people, something fairly abstract. But where will we find the things you're working with in our everyday world, even today, where we might not have expected to find them in the first place?
[Cremers:] Artificial Intelligence may sound like science fiction, but it's reality. Actually we're surrounded by Artificial Intelligence every day. Today, as soon as you turn on your smart phone and dictate a text and the phone transcribes what you say, that's Artificial Intelligence in action. There are algorithms at work which capture what you speak and convert the information basically in real time. And as you know, this text could now easily be translated into other languages. There are companies like DeepL which use Artificial Intelligence and neural networks to perform translation tasks. And once you've tested it, you'll see, it works so well, I have to ask myself why my daughter is still learning English in school…
[Laskus:] And what's an example of an activity that you would never want to see a machine take over, no matter what? What is so important to you that you'd rather do it all by yourself?
[Cremers:] Well, there are some activities which are performed today by Artificial Intelligence which are pretty questionable in nature. Specifically these are things like the surveillance which is taking place in some countries, automated monitoring of the general population using Artificial Intelligence, facial recognition and the like. These are developments which I find very troublesome. And here we have to make sure that we try, not only in Germany, but also worldwide, to establish ethical standards to prevent developments like that.
[Laskus:] Professor Cremers, thank you for speaking with us.
[Cremers:] It was my pleasure.
[Kirsch:] The Technical University of Munich is growing every year and in every respect. There are new rooms, but there are also increasing numbers of students at the university: At present the number is over 45,000. As a result, every semester something takes place in the background which we could also refer to as room Tetris. Gudrun Obst has worked to allocate the room and lecture hall space at TUM for many years now. As a Tetris expert she makes sure that no classroom is overbooked for the next semester and that no lecture has to be held in the hallway. My colleague Marcel Laskus met with this episode's "Hidden Champion".
[Laskus:] It's my pleasure to welcome Ms. Gudrun Obst to our program. Hello!
[Gudrun Obst:] Hello, it's nice to be here!
[Laskus:] During the pandemic everyone was suddenly spending a lot of time at home. That must have been a pretty relaxing period for you, the lecture halls were empty, weren’t they?
[Gudrun Obst:] Yes, they were empty. That's the practical situation, but theory says the lecture halls have to be allocated first. That means that the courses which are conducted in the lecture halls are put online by the respective responsible staff members and the students have to be able to see when and where they will take place. And in some cases their digital lessons are now taking place at different times.
[Laskus:] What are some examples of moments where you say: This work is really fun?
[Obst:] Those are the moments when I can clearly see: every successful schedule starts from scratch, with planning data. I mean, when requests for new courses come in, when individual requests come in, requests which are of course important to the university and the students, things like Faculty Days, graduation ceremonies, graduation parties, award ceremonies like IdeAward and Entrepreneurship Day. Accommodating these kinds of events and trying to find viable solutions that will lead to success, will ultimately make it possible to do all those things.
[Laskus:] Has there ever been a moment where you threw up your hands and simply thought, "No way, how am I ever supposed to handle that?"
[Obst:] Those moments are inevitable. But I've always come up with a solution.
[Laskus:] And has there ever been a project you were particularly proud of having mastered?
[Obst:] I couldn't really name a single event, but every time a certain planning period begins. The first day of lectures, all the data has been processed, everything is on its way, what a total relief!
[Laskus:] And right now, if we look at the Corona pandemic, it's easy to see how many companies, as well as the university, are saying: "We don't need that much office space anymore. Maybe we can get all this done working from home." How do you see the future? How will things be changing at TU Munich in this respect?
[Obst:] It's certainly possible to do that, a lot of things work digitally. But the encounters, the exchange, the mental interaction among faculty and students, the cross-faculty exchange in person has always been very important.
[Laskus:] So a job like yours will also be in demand in the future…
[Obst:] I assume it will.
[Laskus:] Thank you very much, Ms. Obst.
[Obst:] Thank you.
The Young Perspective
[Kirsch:] Anyone who walks through the TU main campus in central Munich these days has probably noticed several raised flower beds, real wooden boxes filled with soil and mulch and planted vegetables. The boxes have been there for several months. They're the responsibility of the student project Plant a Seed. I met with the initiator of the project, Veronica Becker, a 27-year-old environmental engineering student, between the raised flower beds to speak with her about the idea.
[Veronica Becker:] Plant a Seed grew out of the idea that we should really apply our theoretical knowledge, everything we learn in lectures and otherwise. And we want to do more than use the raised flower beds for a little gardening and bring together a few hippy students to dig around a bit, we have a very, very large vision and ambitious objectives. We also want to raise consciousness among the public about what it means to produce your own food.
[Kirsch:] And what can you do with all the vegetables being grown? Right now there are still only half a dozen raised flower beds. But in the long term there are supposed to be many, many more. Would it be possible for example to supply the university or the student cafeterias?
[Becker:] Yes, that's indeed a very, very long-term goal. Of course, we also have stages we'd like to reach first and we've broken up the entire project into smaller steps. But our long-term goal is really to be able to set up vegetable markets at the various campus sites and to partially supply the university's cafeterias.
[Kirsch:] And how did the project go? The raised flower beds have been here since March 2021. But this kind of thing doesn't happen from one day to another. How did it all come about?
[Becker:] Well, I first had the idea in November 2019. At the time I saw the documentary "Tomorrow"; it was about projects all around the world that are doing sustainable things. And I was so incredibly inspired by this documentary that I started thinking about what I could do in my own home town. And then I came up with the idea, I thought I'd like to start an urban gardening project. And the university had the perfect prerequisites. We have the human resources, we have countless students who could join in, we have such an incredible number of degree programs, all of which could contribute their know-how. And we have a little space, not much, but we have a little room where we could make the whole thing happen.
[Kirsch:] You mentioned the long-term goals, like being able to supply the entire university. But what will happen to the harvest until you make it that far? What's happening with the plants, the vegetables that you planted this summer?
[Becker:] Right now, in the first six months, it's just about coming together and bonding as a team and learning how all this is going to be set up – don't forget, the life of a garden is a science in and of itself. Of course it's also important to keep developing within the team and also to show the university that we have everything under control, that we don't just neglect the plants, especially during semester breaks. And the harvest in the first year probably won't be so large. We've been thinking that we'd like to use the harvest for team events, team building events, maybe an open house day for Plant a Seed, so that we can really communicate the topic some more, tell people that we have this here, that anyone can participate. We'd like to use the harvest for that.
[Kirsch:] Right now you're still only working with the raised flower beds. it won't be possible to realize these ambitious plans of being able to feed all the university's students and the entire staff with just the boxes. What resources are there for producing more with the limited amount of space?
[Becker:] For the time being, the plan is to keep our feet on the ground and more than anything to expand to the other sites. Garching and Straubing already have gardens which we only need to expand a little bit. And they also have more room. This means we can grow more efficiently and also can generate larger yields. And of course we're already in the process of developing vertical farming concepts. We're currently working on a shipping container where a vertical farming concept will be installed and which will be located here on the city-center campus. And in the long-term we naturally also want to start working with rooves. But here we first have to get the necessary permits, which will mean a bit more work.
[Kirsch:] Veronica, thanks for the insights into the project. And in case you're asking yourself which student organizations provide the volunteer helpers: They come from all possible areas. There are environmental engineers like Veronica as well as biologists, but there are also sports students and social science students. Anyone who'd like to participate in Plant a Seed is sure to find a place. Feeding 45,000 students is no small challenge.
[Kirsch:] According to federal government plans, Germany wants to be greenhouse gas-neutral by 2045. Construction and residential activities will play a major role in the effort: Various studies have concluded that up to 40 percent of the greenhouse gas emissions are generated by heating and constructing our residences. How could climate-friendly construction work? My colleague Clarissa Ruge discusses the question with Werner Lang, director of the Center for Energy Efficient and Sustainable Design and Building at TUM.
[Ruge:] What will the residential building of the future look like?
[Werner Lang:] The residential building of the future will be located in a well-developed, very densely settled residential neighborhood. It will be created using renewable materials and will have extremely low energy consumption levels.
[Ruge:] If you could choose freely, with some fantasy and hypothetically speaking, what would you find the most beautiful location to live?
[Lang:] If I can be honest, it would be the apartment I currently live in with my wife. It's an apartment on the fifth floor, has a small green space in front of it, and both west-facing and east-facing balconies. So I have the sunrise as well as the sunset in 68 square meters, which is completely sufficient for the two of us. The kids grew up long ago and already live elsewhere. And we're very, very happy there. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
[Ruge:] What can I do on an entirely individual basis to live more sustainably? In addition to the usual things, recycling trash, saving electricity (…).
[Lang:] I think you have to take the three key concepts and the three aspects of sustainability into consideration. The first one is sufficiency. How much do I actually need? How much space do I really need to be happy? The second is rigorousness. This means making sure everything I use, everything I consume, I use in a way that can be operated or built with renewable materials and renewable energies. And only then do we think about efficiency. So the first step is to make some slight improvements, in that order. That would be the objective.
[Ruge:] One of your current lectures is entitled "Resource-Efficient Sustainable Construction". What raw material will go into the residential construction of the future?
[Lang:] I think that could be any of a number of raw materials. Of course in the lead by far is wood. Wood stores CO2, as we all know. We'll be seeing significantly more of this in the future. And there will also be clay, especially in interior construction; maybe not so often for load-bearing walls. Clay stores moisture and can also emit it again, so it's a very healthy building material in any case. And then there are other materials such as reeds. We can also build using algae, for example. This means we still haven't exhausted the possibilities of renewable materials. As far as concrete is concerned, we have this enormous problem that producing cement is extremely energy-intensive. Almost ten percent of the world's energy requirements or CO2 emissions can be attributed to cement. And that means we have to find a new binder material to make concrete as a construction material significantly more sustainable.
[Ruge:] What are some of the leading countries in terms of sustainable construction that we might not think of right away?
[Lang:] I think that, as we always do, we're trying to sell our concept of sustainability throughout the world. And I'm always a little bit ashamed when I give a talk for example in Nairobi, as I did two years ago, about sustainable construction. And then I think that the footprint in India, Africa, in South America is significantly lower. Bangladesh has for example a footprint of 0.8 Global Hectares, which is a unit of area per person. We have five or eight times that. That means we have to learn from these countries how to be content. We have to learn from these countries how to conserve our resources. We have to learn to recycle. So there are very many countries we tend to regard as being somewhat backward. And these are in reality the countries we can benefit from, if we look at how content they are with the small footprints they have.
[Ruge:] You'll be turning 60 this year! What do you want to be sure to achieve in the next few years?
[Lang:] Well, I think we can say that we're off to a good start. We're presently conducting a research project together with the city of Munich. It's called the Green City of the Future, where we want to realize all these things in a neighborhood here in Munich, in the north of Munich. So we want to increase density, redensify. We want to provide living space for more people. We want to bring more green into the city. We want to reduce individual transportation. We want to put all this on an economically robust foundation. And we'll be presenting the results in September. Right now we're already pretty close to what I've been dreaming of, what we can achieve at the Chair, together with the really great colleagues I have, who all collaborate, whether my research assistants or my colleagues from other Chairs. We're already pretty close to that. I hope that I'll be able to participate in the opening ceremonies for the first converted building here at TUM while I'm still in my position here.
The Scientific Discussion
[Kirsch:] In Munich there are occasional friendly competitions between the students of the city's two major universities TUM and LMU, for example student soccer tournaments, scientific contests and the annual winter snowball fight in the English Garden. It's a friendly rivalry, but a rivalry nonetheless. However in several areas the future will see more collaboration than competition. With their ONE MUNICH Strategy Forum TUM, LMU and the state of Bavaria want to work together more closely. I spoke about this joint project with Bernd Sibler, the Bavarian State Minister of Science and Art. Welcome, Mr. Sibler.
[Bernd Sibler:] Hello...
[Kirsch:] Mr. Sibler, Munich's two major universities want to increase their collaboration in the ONE MUNICH Strategy Forum, with the support of the Bavarian government. How did this collaboration come about?
[Sibler:] Competition is local, regional, international. Competition has many advantages, because it can mobilize strengths. But in international competition in particular it is becoming very, very important that Bavaria and the lead of the Munich Union can also position themselves in the international sector. Here the key is to work well together in the fields where it's clever to do so. And that was the basic idea, a rational consideration on the most clever way to consolidate strengths.
[Kirsch:] Was the initiative launched by the universities or by the Bavarian government? How did that look?
[Sibler:] Oh, you know, they did something between falling for the idea and settling into it. Of course it's very, very important for us as a ministry to always leverage a little bit of synergy, so that we can once again increase visibility. Munich as a location is of course very highly visible in international terms. But you notice it with the topics Artificial Intelligence, digitalization in the medical field, many technological fields, and also in social science and humanities fields. There is a desire to be perceived, not just between Aschaffenburg and Passau, but between Tokyo and Washington. And here it's clever to consolidate critical masses and then increase visibility and improve competitive strength.
[Kirsch:] How will Munich as a city benefit from this strengthened collaboration between LMU and TUM on the one hand, and Bavaria as a state on the other?
[Sibler:] Both universities are also Universities of Excellence, both rank among the 50 best universities in the world, depending on the ranking and the fields considered. Consolidating this strength will mean much, much more visibility in a world which has become much smaller and has many more competitors. It's very fortunate that smaller countries are also making progress, countries we would have referred to as developing countries in the past, as well as the Eastern Europeans within the European Union. And this is a good thing and positive, because here science is an international language which forges international bonds. On the other hand we will have to face up to these changes ourselves. This is why it's good to increase visibility, also of course including a bit of increased efficiency in financial terms. And it's smart and right for us to support these collaborative efforts.
[Kirsch:] You've already alluded to the fact: Both universities are already Universities of Excellence, both are among the best universities in Europe and in the world in many subjects. Shouldn't we retain this rivalry in the interest of increasing competitive excellence? Will the present collaboration have an impact here, will it ruin this rivalry?
[Sibler:] We need this competition where it makes good sense. Of course there is always this friendly sort of collegiate, good-natured competition between the subject areas. You mentioned examples all the way to the snowball fight. That's really remarkable, and it's lovely. And it also increases the level of competitive strength just a bit. But more than anything it should be conducted where it has national and international importance. We saw in the last Excellence Initiative how Berlin was a location which was not yet really a feature on the scientific map. We've seen this incredible development in Baden-Württemberg, and in other states as well. But we have to position ourselves internationally; in the Hightech Agenda we put over three billion euros into attracting the cleverest minds in the world in a variety of technologies, many of them new technologies, motivating them to come here. We want to help our universities, especially the two in Munich, but also the other Bavarian universities, to be attractive to the best minds in their subject areas. That's our objective.
[Kirsch:] You mention Bavaria's Hightech Agenda: What kind of support is Bavaria providing in the context of this partnership? It's natural to assume there are purely financial aspects. Is that all there is to it, or is Bavaria providing support above and beyond funding?
[Sibler:] Financial support is one aspect. We'll be spending as much as two million euros in the next few years in order to create some new jobs. A couple of opportunities for coordination, doctoral candidates, things like that. Talented young scientific staff is of decisive importance. That's one thing. The other is however really the strategic consolidation, eliminating potential hurdles. And here we can fortunately say we've come a long, long way. In the meantime it's working out really well, a lot of trust has emerged, including in the area of university medicine, which is of paramount importance in the days of Corona, being able to provide people with a sense of security through research, but also with medical care. And we're in the process of making the overall picture a little more Olympian at the Bavarian and German level, addressing interests which are more than an individual university can cover. And here we have a very, very good dialog, we're all benefitting from it.
[Kirsch:] There's another aspect I'd like to discuss with you, the collaboration. We've spoken about TUM, LMU and Bavaria. But partners from outside of the university sector are also supposed to participate, partners from business, industry. How will these partners be integrated in this collaborative effort?
[Sibler:] First of all we've already brought this partnership to life with a specific project in the field of biosciences. We also have extremely strong non-university research activities here in Munich. Just to mention a couple of institutes, we're already working together with the Max Planck Institute and German Research Center for Environmental Health Helmholtz Zentrum München. Max Planck is the primary institute we're working together with. Of course there is competition here too, but in this case it's constructive competition which makes us better. Helmholtz is a world market player who is very visible in the medical research sector. Consolidating all of this is a perfectly obvious choice. And then partners from business and industry come in almost without being asked. We also want to strengthen this effect a bit in the Bavarian University and College Act by expanding the possibilities for exchange. This doesn't mean that the universities will all become entrepreneurial universities as a result, but rather simply that exchange with other structures will become easier. This is our approach and it's working out here. This ONE MUNICH Strategy is doing a very, very good job of living out what we've developed in many areas in Bavarian university policy over the last two or three years. Things are becoming very concrete.
[Kirsch:] Do you see the risk here that companies or non-university partners who don't take part in this collaborative effort will be left behind?
[Sibler:] The partners will have to find one another, exerting pressure from the outside wouldn't make sense. But I'm not worried here at all, since these sectors are already so well networked with one another. The respective scenes have fortunately been familiar with one another for a long time already and will come together accordingly. Otherwise we'll organize a couple of conferences so that we'll be able to bring a couple of new partners on board. But that’s the least of my worries. The community members know each other very well and are excellently networked.
[Kirsch:] Mr. Sibler, thank you very much for the conversation.
[Sibler:] The pleasure is all mine.
[Kirsch:] As always, we'll conclude this episode by taking a step back, leaving the world of TUM and looking at life from a different point of view. The topic today is mobile working and our guest is Merlin Gröber. Welcome, Mr. Gröber!
[Merlin Gröber:] Hello Mr. Kirsch!
[Kirsch:] Mr. Gröber, you're an author, primarily for topics relating to the automobile. You write for Geo magazine, for the weekly Die Zeit and you've been on the road in a bus for the last year and a half, living and working in the bus. I'll ask directly: What led you to decide to take your life out of the apartment and put it in the bus and not only live there and travel in the bus, but also to work in the bus?
[Gröber:] Actually, I really only wanted to travel. That was in early 2020, as the world still looked quite different. Then Corona came and my travel plans were finished. That was when I decided to shift my everyday life to the bus and I have to say: even today I don't regret at thing.
[Kirsch:] Of course the everyday routine includes working, in your case mobile working. You're constantly on the go, you write at different locations, and as an expert you've brought along five tips on the best way to work on a mobile basis, on what we should keep in mind. What are your five tips you have for us today?
[Gröber:] The first tip is: Clear up the legal situation. Will your employer even permit you to work on a mobile basis? In contrast to working from home, mobile work doesn't mean that you need a home workstation. And at the moment, the legal situation is not clear. There's no legal definition of mobile work. The second tip is the location, very important. You need a quiet, shady location. I like to work in the parking lots at the heads of hiking trails, where it's quiet and there are trees for shade. I find places like that either by travelling, discovering something directly, or I use apps like park4night, iOverlander and Google Maps to plan in advance. All these apps give keywords to the parking lots or help you find parking lots.
The third thing is the internet, also very important. Today you just can't work without the internet. I personally have a smartphone contract with unlimited data volume. Nevertheless I only use 60 gigabytes. And sometimes I use a dead spot app or the government ministry's broadband monitor. This way I can figure out if the parking lots I've chosen using Google Maps even have internet coverage. The fourth tip is electricity. I personally work with a power bank or an inverter. This way I can charge my laptop and phone using the cigarette lighter socket in the bus. In the long term I plan to get a second battery and to attach a solar panel to the roof of the bus, though. But somebody who's just beginning doesn't need that yet. And the fifth tip is clear: Start slowly. Get off to an easy start, first plan an afternoon for working outdoors or maybe take a long weekend and add the Monday or Friday. Don't start by cancelling the contract on your apartment, moving into a van and hanging up LED light chains in the window. That won't make you happy.
[Kirsch:] In any case, the jump to mobile work sounds like it requires some very good advance planning. Mr. Gröber, thank you very much for sharing with us today.
[Gröber:] Thanks for giving me a chance to share!
[Kirsch:] And thank you for joining us today.
And that's it for this episode of "We are TUM". In the next episode we'll once again be showcasing TUM's cutting-edge research, student life and we'll be speaking with all those who make TU Munich the unique place that it is. This has been "We are TUM". This episode was produced by Marcel Laskus, Clarissa Ruge, León Voßberg and Wenzel Weber. Sound design and post-production by Marco Meister from Edition Meister in Berlin. That's all until the next episode. Make sure to join us and discover the big and little secrets of the Technical University of Munich.