"And now if you imagine you're a newly founded start-up, for example in the pharmaceutical sector. Let's say you've developed a new possible active ingredient for something, and then you're surrounded by a number of globally active competitors with substantially more possibilities than you have in terms of financial, legal and even manufacturing resources. If your technology isn't protected, then in no time at all the competition will sweep you under the rug."
[Moderator Matthias Kirsch:] The man we just heard is Philipp Merkl. And there's a good reason why he's talking about how multinational companies try to steal the ideas of small start-up founders: It's his job to keep exactly that from happening. Philipp Merkl is a technology manager at TU Munich. He helps researchers receive patents for their ideas. We'll hear more from this episode's Hidden Champion in a few moments. Welcome to "We are TUM", the podcast by and for the Technical University of Munich. My name is Matthias Kirsch and I'll be guiding you through this podcast. As always university President Thomas Hofmann will get things started by introducing the topics of today's episode to you.
[President Thomas Hofmann:] Welcome to "We are TUM", dear listener: Studying at TU Munich means a lot more than acquiring factual knowledge and specialized skills. We teach our students to think in an analytical and structured manner, and to behave responsibly in harmony with a moral and ethical code of values. One of these values is empathy. Empathy plays a special role in providing medical care to patients. But studies have shown that physicians tend to lose empathy during the course of their medical school studies – and we want to change that. In this episode Professor Pascal Berberat, Dean of Studies at our School of Medicine, tells us how that can work. Then we hear from our students. We speak with Fabian Richter, one of our actively dedicated student representatives, who shares with us his personal impressions of studying in the age of the pandemic and how the pandemic has impacted learning and testing. We conclude this episode of "We are TUM" by sitting down for a look at job interviews. Maximilian Mendius is a recruiter at BMW. He knows exactly what's important when young people take the exciting first step into a professional life. And today he'll give us five tips to make every future interview a bit easier. And now I wish you an enjoyable listening experience with the latest episode of "We are TUM".
[Kirsch:] This episode of "We are TUM" begins about one kilometer east of the TUM main campus, at the university hospital TUM Klinikum rechts der Isar. The hospital not only cares for people and saves lives, it is also home to healthcare, research and teaching, all under one roof. The man responsible for teaching is Pascal Berberat, the Dean of Studies at the TUM School of Medicine. He's also responsible for the future development of the degree program. One topic is of particular importance to him: Doctors should not only be good physicians, they should also be good human beings. My colleague Clarissa Ruge speaks with Pascal Berberat about empathy.
[Clarissa Ruge:] Hello, Mr. Berberat.
[Pascal Berberat:] Hello.
[Ruge:] You've written in an article that empathy on the part of physicians is one of the most important prerequisites for this profession. How do you teach students to have empathy?
[Berberat:] Well, it's really true that if you ask students or physicians at any stage in their careers what the actual essence of the art of being a doctor is, or what makes the difference between a good physician and "just being a doctor", almost everyone would respond: empathy. But if you continue to discuss what empathy actually is, there's naturally a lot of theory and a wide variety of opinions and everything gets very fuzzy. So the question of how to teach empathy is really very justified. We in the medical branch have a lot of practice in teaching knowledge and skills. That just may even be the difficulty: Empathy is of course not a learning objective that you can learn by rote memorization. Even just the realization that empathy is important has a lot to do with clinical experience and also with exposure to medical personalities. Young people have to have a chance to learn to do that from experienced physicians and gain experience with clinical operation. And of course that experience won't only be positive things. That's why I think it's very important to actively reflect on what and how these young people are learning.
[Ruge:] Looking at the biographies of physicians who are suddenly patients themselves, then the self-critical assessment of these physicians is often: "I had no idea that colleagues have so little empathy" or "I never would have thought that you feel so alone with a serious illness like cancer". Have you had a similar experience yourself? Do you share this kind of opinion or accept reports like that?
[Berberat:] I certainly can understand that. It's only natural that the negative side of things is what sticks. I believe it's really very important to remember that there are also many patients who have very positive experiences and who encounter physicians who really do possess this kind of empathy. Of course the negative experiences are what's often discussed in the literature; there are even studies – although they're not undisputed – but there are studies, which show that physicians actually lose some of their ability to be empathetic while studying at medical school and during continuing education. And I don't think that's really even much of a surprise, since medicine is linked to a high degree of social responsibility, including towards the patient. This is a field in which uncertainty is not acceptable at all. And then naturally physicians react with the desire to control this, which often has to do with the fact that the physician is reluctant to open up to the patient with personal feelings and closeness. So it's like a reaction by physicians not to give up any control and not to allow their own emotions or subjectivity to come into play. Instead, everything is supposed to take place based on evidence. On the one hand that's a good thing since medicine has to work that way. But on the other hand this can result in a certain coldness and distance which patients really do perceive.
[Ruge:] What do you do to counteract this? You said before that the students can consult and emulate experienced physicians. But what other opportunities do you see, specifically in teaching, to convey these points, to counteract, as you just said, the loss of empathy.
[Berberat:] I think it's important that we openly take the offensive on the topic of empathy and not just say, well, that's something which can't be taught anyway, it's just an inherent talent or something the individual learns when growing up. It's true, you can't teach empathy the way you'd teach certain facts or teach someone how to sew. I think the topic calls for explicit space in which the students have time to reflect on what they experience, where someone simply talks with them for an hour or even a half: The conversations don't have to be that long. But we have to ask on a regular basis: "What did you experience in the ward today?" And the response will include both positive and negative experiences. The important thing is not to let this aspect simply pass you by, but rather to address the issue in a personal manner. How did I perceive that? Do I want to be like this physician or that one? What would I have done differently? And then you have to look at the difficulties. We also have a technique, a pretty recent development, that says you can also use auxiliary materials from literature or art. And in literature and art in particular topics like these are naturally handled from a personal point of view. And that sometimes helps students reflect a bit on their own feelings and then talk about them.
[Ruge:] That makes me curious. Do you have an example?
[Berberat:] Sure, one example is "Catch Me if You Can". Almost everyone knows the movie, with DiCaprio. There's one scene where DiCaprio plays an imposter who claims to be a physician. And this scene is actually very appropriate, just watching it is good. Even without relating it to medicine: What's actually going on here? Why does that work? Why do the others believe he's a physician? Then you start to form an idea of what actually makes a physician a physician; How is he or she actually perceived by patients in this role, in addition to the expert knowledge? Because the imposter has no expert knowledge. That helps students become aware of what it could mean to be a doctor. So that's another method, in addition to the practical aspects, really discussing everyday experiences with the students.
[Ruge:] You're in the midst of your career, in the midst of your wish to improve teaching in your field. Can you specifically say: These are the points I want to achieve in the next few years?
[Berberat:] Right now I probably have about 20 good years ahead of me in my profession. And I think there are two points I can mention that have to do with the topic we're discussing: giving more importance in the curriculum to this subjectivity, this aspect of relations in medicine. If I somehow manage to establish that, not just by coincidence, but rather to give the issue a certain systematic form, that would be an important point. And the second thing: to address this issue at the university level in general and in medicine in particular, since of course our instructors are primarily also clinicians who are involved in caring for patients every day. And then they're expected to conduct research as well – and teaching often gets the short end of the stick. Of course, this is a serious danger, given the current economization of the entire healthcare system. I'm convinced that it's not only a great honor but also a great privilege to accompany young people during a critical phase in their lives, where they're also developing their own personalities. And I believe many of colleagues are also aware of that. But we have to create space and structures so that they actually can do that and still retain a sense of happiness. Today my colleagues are often under a lot of time pressure, and then teaching comes on top of that. And if I can succeed in making some more room for that, more structure and more entitlement, then we'll have achieved quite a bit. So we have a lot of work ahead of us…
[Ruge:] I think you're quite right. Thank you very much for speaking with us and sharing your insights.
[Berberat:] My pleasure.
[Kirsch:] Imagine: You have an idea, one that's so good you want to start a company based on it, to market and sell the idea. At the same time, there's a major international company which would much rather present exactly this idea as being its own property. At TUM, where entrepreneurial spirit is taken very seriously, exactly this scenario happens all too often. And in order to make sure that good ideas make it to society in general, we have Philipp Merkl. He investigates the question of whether or not a given idea is suitable for a patent and he's this episode's Hidden Champion. My colleague Marcel Laskus speaks with him.
[Marcel Laskus:] Hello, Mr. Merkl.
[Philipp Merkl:] Hello, Mr. Laskus.
[Laskus:] Let's say I, as an employees of TU Munich, have a brilliant idea. When would be the right point in time to bring this idea to you and have it protected?
[Merkl:] Well, in general you would submit an invention report to us, we would inspect the invention report, often in collaboration with our partners at the Bayerischen Patentallianz (BayPat or Bavarian Patent Alliance). BayPat is a patent evaluation agency formed by Bavarian universities for exactly this purpose, to investigate inventions for patentability and patent merit in a consolidated manner. What does patentability mean? Patentability means the invention has to be absolutely new, since patent law works with an absolute concept of novelty. It has to constitute an innovation when compared to the existing state of the art and it has to be economically applicable. This last criterion is however almost always met. We also inspect patent merit, where we take an even closer look at the potential commercialization of the invention. In essence we commission a small market analysis. We want to find out whether or not there are potential licensees for an invention or an idea. There are a lot of things you could register for patent application, but we're of course obligated to take economic action as well. A patent application is very expensive and we can't simply file applications for everything when a lot of them will later turn out not to be commercially viable.
[Laskus:] Why is patent protection so important to a university like TUM?
[Merkl:] TUM is of course a great place where an awful lot of knowledge is generated, where new technologies and methods are developed. And TUM, like every university in Germany, has the legally founded duty to transfer these technologies to society at large. Ultimately it's a question of jobs, economic value creation, but also of general societal progress, all of which are to be fostered. If we step back and take a look at the very broad picture, we believe that in the future Europe's prosperity and competitive strength will depend entirely on our ability to economically exploit our ideas and technologies. We as a continent couldn't export great amounts of raw materials or service the low-wage sector. We see our future much more in our technologies and our ideas.
And of course TUM is basically a university which is highly committed to the entrepreneurial spirit in addition to classic research and teaching. Our current President, President Hofmann, intends to continue with massive expansion of this third pillar, university entrepreneurship. And now if you imagine you're a newly founded start-up, for example in the pharmaceutical sector. Let's say you've developed a new possible active ingredient for something, and then you're surrounded by a number of globally active competitors with substantially more possibilities than you have in terms of financial, legal and even manufacturing resources. If your technology isn't protected, then in no time at all the competition will sweep you under the rug. And that's why it's so important to protect your technology when founding a technology-based start-up, and a patent is a great way to do just that. A patent is primarily a prohibitive right, a factor many people underestimate. So the patent is not the right to do something, instead it's the right to forbid your competition from doing something. And that's the only way to prohibit a major global player from simply copying your product or imitating your method.
[Laskus:] It's said that the light bulb was invented by several people, independent of one another and almost simultaneously. Does that come up in your work as well, that patents are entered simultaneously, simply because a certain idea's time has come?
[Merkl:] Well, I don't have an exact statistic on that, but in general it's unavoidable. As you already said, developments simply take place in parallel. Laboratories around the world are working on similar questions. A highly visible example was what the media often refer to as "genetic scissors", the CRISPR/Cas system, where two different laboratories filed for patent protection at about the same time. It's the same for scientific publications, it will always occur to some extent. And there's another reason this is unavoidable: patent applications are not published until 18 months after they have been submitted. That means you can't even take a look at the last 18 months and you don't know whether a competitor has already reached a state of the art which you simply can't know about, in spite of the best possible patent research. And as I said before, patent law recognizes an absolute concept of novelty. That means when a given state of the art already exists and you describe the same thing in your own patent specification, then you simply won't be able to patent your idea.
[Laskus:] What do you enjoy about your work?
[Merkl:] Well, my work is very multi-faceted. I don't just get invention reports on my desk and check them the way we just discussed. A lot of my work has to do with negotiating clauses that deal with intellectual property in all different kinds of contracts that TUM enters into. I have a great view of the latest research which is taking place at TUM in the widest possible variety of fields. And that's very exciting, getting to witness that as a former scientist. I come into contact with a very wide range of instances at TUM, with the chairs and professorships, with other central departments. And what we do is also coordinated relatively closely with the TUM Board of Management, since we also work on strategies for the further development of our field "intellectual property". And I personally also have two other separate assignments. For example, I handle a lecture organized by TUM ForTe Patents & Licenses, where we really want to provide our students with their first look at the world of intellectual property. And I'm also Key Account Manager for institutional collaboration with the European Patent Office. This also takes us in the direction of collaborating in the fields of IP Teaching and IP Awareness.
[Laskus:] Has there ever been a moment where you maybe learned from the media about an invention which you helped patent and thought, wow, I helped protect that idea back then and now look how successful these people are?
[Merkl:] Well, not yet, at least not that personally. But we're always happy to see reports in the media about start-ups that are extremely successful at TUM, for example like those in the last few months about Celonis, our 10 billion strong Unicorn...
[Laskus:] Thank you for speaking with us.
[Merkl:] You're welcome!
The Young Perspective
[Kirsch:] Semester break, an expression which can evoke a wide range of emotions. Some may think of vacation, a ski trip or a while at the beach. But not everyone has such a positive reaction: Many students still have to take exams during the semester breaks. And the time is coming once again. The exam phase has fundamentally changed, especially during the Corona pandemic. Tests are taken on the laptop instead of in the Audimax, monitoring is handled by software instead of being watched by an exam proctor. Fabian Richter is the head of the TUM Student Council. My colleague Fabian Dilger speaks with him about the examination process in the days of Corona.
[Fabian Dilger:] Mr. Richter, in the meantime we're in our fourth semester of Corona mode. What different types of exams are currently being held at TUM?
[Fabian Richter:] There are digital exams and in-person exams. This always depends quite a lot on the degree program and on the module itself. Not every type of examination can be used in every module. Many exams, especially practical exams, should be and often still are being held on an in-person basis. And then of course in the meantime there are a lot of digital exams as well a variety of digital formats. On the one hand there are one-time exercises, where the students more or less work on the assignment at home, there are truly digital examinations which are then monitored with the widest possible variety of methods and there are still exams taking place in person in the classic form, in the lecture hall.
[Dilger:] What rules apply for students who attend exams held in-person?
[Richter:] Since the exam situation is subject to special protection, for examinations the "3G-Plus" (vaccinated, recovered or negative PCR test) rule applies, as compared to normal operations, where 2G applies. That means the person either has to present a PCR test or proof of vaccinated or recovered status.
[Dilger:] And how are purely digital examinations monitored?
[Richter:] There are several models here. In one model, those taking the exam are monitored by a special program; right now more than anything Proctorio is being used. That's a program which monitors the student using camera and microphone, which have to be activated, and it also watches the student's screen or monitor for irregularities. Then there's the option of using exam supervision. This means a person has to be in a room in Zoom or BBB, has the camera and microphone switched on and an exam supervisor, a person, sits in and watches what the student does, how the student acts, using the student's camera, the webcam.
[Dilger:] In Bavaria we have what is referred to in legalese as the "Distance Examination Testing Regulation" ("Fernprüfungserprobungsverordnung"). And this regulation stipulates that participation in electronic distance examinations is voluntary. That means someone who doesn't want to take a digital exam always has the right to take the exam in person.
[Richter:] Not quite: Not everything which people think is a digital or online examination is actually that. The best example here is the one-time exercises which the students are to perform at home without supervision within a certain period of time and then have to upload. These exercises do not entail an obligation to provide an in-person alternative, since officially they aren't examinations, they're exercises. But students can hardly tell whether what they're looking at is an examination or just an exercise. It's listed at the end in the examination format, and you can look this up in Campus online at any time. But for distance examinations where the student is monitored, there actually always has to be an in-person alternative.
[Dilger:] And how about you yourself? Do you prefer taking exams in the lecture hall on paper or at home on the laptop?
[Richter:] I don't actually have much of a preference. I usually have one-time exercises in mathematics. That means it doesn't make a difference if I'm sitting at home working on the problem or sitting on campus. At home I write them on paper, scan them in and upload them, in the lecture hall I just turn in the paper directly.
[Dilger:] Take the following hypothetical situation: Two days before the exam, which is being held in-person, the student suddenly tests positive for Corona. What happens to the student, who will have to go into isolation or quarantine?
[Richter:] Exactly the same thing happens as with any other illness. The difference is, if you just feel ill, you have to confirm that you would like to take part in an exam and confirm that you are able to do so, the same way all exams begin. The difference is, with Corona you don't have the freedom to decide yourself and say okay, I feel up to it or I don't feel up to it. Instead there are quarantine obligations. There are other illnesses with quarantine obligations as well, and there too it works just the same way as when you're ill and don't have to take the exam. Either you don't show up for the test, when it doesn't matter whether you fail or not, or you can withdraw from the exam in advance due to quarantine and illness. This way you can have the exam annulled or you can withdraw in advance.
[Dilger:] Mr. Richter, has there been any experience gained with digital examinations concerning things that didn't work out so well? Is there anything that needs improvement?
[Richter:] I can think of a couple of difficulties with Proctorio. Proctorio monitors the student digitally, and as a machine it can happen quite often that something is incorrectly marked as an attempt at cheating. That means a substantial amount of work for the instructor, who then has to check to see whether the situation involved cheating or not. And there are some data privacy concerns about Proctorio as well. The state of Baden-Württemberg Only recently banned its use for examinations purposes.
[Dilger:] What's the issue in Proctorio with the false cheating statements, and how can that be remedied?
[Richter:] The problem is somewhere in the software. A variety of instructors have already tested out the program on a trial basis, and in three minutes of using the software there were 20 reports of cheating. And Proctorio marks everything which could in any way possibly be something wrong as "Something may have happened here" and issues a giant PDF document. Then the instructor has to look at everything again and say, okay, that looks like cheating or that doesn't look like cheating. So there are sometimes problems there.
[Dilger:] Do you expect the program to be replaced soon in Bavaria as well?
[Richter:] From the student's point of view, I hope it will be.
[Dilger:] Were there situations in the last few semesters in which it would have been possible to improve the examination concept, regardless of whether digital or in-person?
[Richter:] One thing that can maybe be improved for digital examinations, which I've heard about from various sides, is having contact persons available to the students during the exam itself in case there's some kind of technical problem. It's always possible that something on the technology side simply breaks down completely. That happened to me once, my laptop crashed ten times during a single exam because there was a defect in the file. I simply couldn't keep working and had nothing reasonable to turn in at the end of the exam. Having a contact person for that kind of situation or a telephone number, an e-mail address so that students can report technical difficulties during the exam, to withdraw from the attempted exam, that would definitely be a good thing.
[Dilger:] Let's take a look at the future of exams at TU Munich. Do students want to see an expanded range of this kind of digital exams available? Or will the future see digital examinations only?
[Richter:] I think we won't be seeing exclusively digital exams in the next few years. I think we have many exam formats which we're already using and which simply wouldn't have the same didactic success as they do when used on a practical or in-person basis. Presumably there will still be digital exams, we won't move away from that, at least depending on the course of the pandemic. Right now there are degree programs which have grown so rapidly in the last few years that in the foreseeable future there will be no way to conduct purely in-person exams for the larger modules, since there are so many students that we wouldn't have enough room to test them all at the same time while still complying with hygiene regulations. This applies more than anything to module exams in Informatics, which also involve students from many other faculties. One well-known example of that is "Basics of Databases", a lecture with over 2,000 students. And the tendency is that even a few more sign up for the exam every time. There's hardly enough room to test them all at the same time under the current Corona hygiene regulations.
[Kirsch:] We'll conclude today's episode by once again stepping outside the direct environs of TUM and moving on to our "Five Tips" section. Our guest today is Maximilian Mendius, head of Recruiting Systems, Processes and Tools at the BMW Group. And he has some tips for us which will be of particular interest to the students in our audience, since the tips relate to some things we absolutely have to pay attention to when applying for a job. Hello, Mr. Mendius.
[Maximilian Mendius:] Hello, and thank you very much for inviting me, I'm very glad to be here.
[Kirsch:] Mr. Mendius, before we move on to your tips: In the meantime you've been with BMW for ten years. How did you prepare for your own job interview back then?
[Mendius:] Yes, it's a fascinating thing to think that far back. In fact, I was on the road, so I simply sat down on the ICE train, looked at the job description and thought about how my resume fit with the job description . I thought about the extent to which I had acquired the skills and abilities that I would be needing. And then I did some thinking about the questions which the colleagues at BMW might ask me. And as you can see, thank heavens, it worked out fine (in spite of my apprehensions at first) and I can be here with you today.
[Kirsch:] Right. And now, eleven years later, you're sitting on the other side of the interview desk, as the head of Recruiting Systems. And you have some tips for us on what we should keep in mind when applying for a job. What are your five tips?
[Mendius:] Well, let's get started with number one: If you don't play along, you can't win. So, please, please, please when you see a job that you're interested in, simply take a deep breath and go ahead and apply for it! Even if you don't already meet all the criteria listed in the job announcement. All too often we think, oh, they want eight different things and I only have six of them, should I try or not? You have to see it as if this was a kind of Christmas wish list: Of course we write down everything we would really like to have, but we don't always get everything. So if you already have five or six things, that's great. Then don't get stuck thinking about the two or three things you may not yet have. Especially if you're coming directly from the university, it's completely normal that there are going to be some things you still have to learn. So if you're interested in the job and you think it will be fun: Apply!
Tip number 2: This comes in when I've made it that far and have decided to submit the application materials. How should I set them up?How should I design them? How should I submit them and make them so that the recruiters like to look at them and ideally also find them good? Very important, the topic of the cover letter isn't the major issue. The focus should be on the resume. We need a CV that looks good and is easy to read, arranged in chronological order and ideally starts today and moves back into the past. And please try to present topics like language skills, programming languages, certain technical skills, CAD etc. in a box or in the most visible possible format so that they catch the eye right away. Make the whole thing as short and compact as possible and then everything's fine!
The third tip is a specific one having to do with something that is happening more and more often at many companies. There is a new format which is increasingly replacing what I call the telephone interview, which used to be the classic way to do it, but now we have what's called the time-delay video interview. You receive an invitation to film yourself and answer questions which the recruiters at the various specialty departments have previously recorded. If you receive an invitation, it is important to remember that it's time-delay so that you can do it at any time that suits you. So think about what time of day you feel best, where you react particularly well, where you feel comfortable. Then do the interview exactly then. If that's one o'clock in the morning for you, fine, do it then. Nobody will look at what time it was when you made your recording, so pick a time when you feel good. Then check to see what your room looks like, since it will be part of the film. Make sure you get rid of anything in the background which could be embarrassing. And then, and this is very important, get yourself something to drink and take a deep breath, maybe go get a quick breath of fresh air, because you may have to react to a couple of uncomfortable questions. This way you'll be able to react well and you'll be well prepared and you won't have to worry about what you're doing. Should something like that occur, well, now you've already heard about the possibility and you can prepare yourself accordingly.
The fourth tip applies when the discussions actually begin. Here it's important to prepare by taking another look at your individual resume. You wouldn't believe how often it happens to us that candidates can't remember what's in their own CVs. And stay authentic and communicate clearly, even in case of critical questions. Otherwise we'd notice that at some point, which wouldn't be very good. So if you've found yourself in a difficult situation in the past, then go ahead and talk about it. The idea is then to build a bridge to how you resolved that situation. An honest "I'm sorry, but I really don't know anything about that" is better than trying to skirt the issue, taking off in a completely wrong direction: That makes a rather unprofessional impression.
[Kirsch:] So no matter what, always, always stick to the truth. And you have a fifth tip for us to close with…
[Mendius:] Right. Prepare your own questions and prepare a formulation of your own expectations. Some people are actually completely surprised when we ask at the end of the interview: Do you have any questions? Think about what you feel is important for you to know, since this is a great opportunity. I should say that a job application has two sides: As a company, we check whether or not you're right for us. But at the same time it gives you a chance to see if we're a good fit for you. And that's what I meant about preparing yourself for the discussion. You should also give some thought to your expectations when the topic of salary comes up. That happens an awful lot, we find the candidates are completely surprised and then they have completely bizarre ideas about what they should expect to be paid. And that's just the last tip: Take the time to look in the internet, in the usual forums and resources and gather information. If you should happen to be applying to a company bound by a collective labor agreement, check the web pages of the tariff parties to see what the classic salary levels are. It can sometimes make a kind of strange impression if your expectations are far too high or way too low.
[Kirsch:] The first job application is often a completely exciting moment in the young career of the student. Our listeners are now better prepared for their first interviews with these tips from Mr. Mendius. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us, Mr. Mendius.
[Mendius:] I thank you as well, and I wish our listeners a fantastic, successful graduation and all the best and continued success and fun when you join the labor force.
[Kirsch:] Thank you. And that's it for this episode of "We are TUM". In the next episode we'll once again be showcasing TUM's cutting-edge research, student life and we'll be speaking with all those who make TU Munich the unique place that it is. This episode was produced by Fabian Dilger, Marcel Laskus, Clarissa Ruge, ProLehre Media and Didactics and by me, Matthias Kirsch. Sound design and post-production by Marco Meister at Edition Meister in Berlin. That's all until the next episode. Make sure to join us and discover the big and little secrets of the Technical University of Munich!
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